Europe

[Endovelico]

[Sparky]

[Sparky]

[Endovelico]

[Sparky]

[Endovelico]

Sparky,

I'm afraid you will not get the importance of what I'm suggesting until some unpleasant political or military event will show you how powerless we are without some form of political union. Faced with an united England the clan system in Scotland didn't prove very adequate to protect their freedom. Why do you think it will be different with us?

[Sparky]

[Fontinau]

[Endovelico]

[noddy]

there is no such thing as a limited confederacy Endo.

once you do get that big conflict, which requires you all to act as one via a remote central authority, good luck getting any authority back after.

you and sparky are saying the same things, its just that he fears a european dictatorship more than some theoretical foreigner takeover.

looking at the american federalist arguments (im sure you may have seen some, somewhere:) and closer to home, Australian federalist arguments, I tend to agree with him.

you maybe interested to know that australia went federal for ww2 for precisely the reasons you state - and those of us who arent in the largest state, with the best organised vampires, ermm, I mean socialists, really fucking regret it.

[Endovelico]

[Sparky]

[I am ST]

[Colonel Sun]

I recall an incident wherein a party and leader in Austria were democratically elected that the Eurocrats did not approve of leading to histrionics and various threats of action . . .

[I am ST]

Well, Colonel, those absent-minded Austrians had the audacity to vote for the wrong kind of people, people who were pro-markets and anti-immigration. The 14 EU ministers at the time refused to talk to or shake hands with any of the members of the coalition government ... for about 2 months, after which they awkwardly pretended the whole episode never happened.

Luckily, Jörg Haider (who was being watched 24/7 by a number of secret services) died in a tragic and very accidental car accident, which, as the police determined indubitably, was fully and entirely his own fault. Respectfully in the face of this "human tragedy", the mainstream media and the politicians went on to proclaim that the dead man who could not defend himself was a) SO gay!, and b) on the dole from Saddam Hussein and Muammar Gaddafi, c) loved to kick puppies and feed dewinged butterflies to spiders.

Not a nice man, that.

[Sparky]

[Fontinau]

[Colonel Sun]

[Sparky]

The autopsy said that he drove to far to the right.

[Ibrahim]

Being anti-immigrant and ultra-conservative in Austria or Germany does bring back certain memories. Perhaps not fair, but true nonetheless. Having pretty much dropped the ball with the Nazis in the '30's, European politicos don't want to make the same mistake with Nazis 2.0. Looks bad in future history books.

[Rhapsody]

[Colonel Sun]

[Endovelico]

[Sparky]

I would not - but then again, neither are make-work political projects with no great value or virtue. You keep saying that we Europeans *must* band together under a united government and abandon individual control of our destinies:
a/ To thwart the Americans
b/ For protection against future [GENERIC_TROUBLE]
c/ For reasons of efficiency
d/ Because you're just right, okay? And everyone else is wrong, and it's inevitable.

As I've said:
a/ America is essentially harmless to us, no matter how hard they rename their fast food.
b/ We're as good to go as we'll ever be in terms of future economic or military tempests - given that none of us knows what they'll be.
c/ The EU is as agile and efficient as a donkey on roller-skates.

Even discounting d/ which is at the level of my gilded sandpit, this is pretty thin stuff to base a case for a radical, continent wide redistribution of power and sovereignty.

[I am ST]