My solution to the Libertarian dilemma

[Mr. Perfect]

I started out as a libertarian, but I never use that title because people that call themselves that are generally chicken.

There are two kinds of libertarians.

1) People that don't want to have to deal with the baggage of an existing political party so they call themselves libertarian.

2) People that don't want to actually win an election and then have to actually grapple with the problems the gov't has to grapple with.

So call yourself a libertarian and you don't have to deal with any of that. Nice and neat, and yellow as the day is long.

So I am one of those, have always been, but had the courage to realize the only vehicle to achieve my dreams was the Republican Party, and so with courage and a great deal of pride I publicly state my party affiliation every chance I get. And at a young age I tried really, really hard to never take gov't help for anything. I always did my best. I felt if I took the money I would be supporting the system. Sacrife my integrity. Looking back, pre-internet age, the lengths that I went to to avoid taking money from the gov't are frankly embarrassingly and sweetly naive, in a sad way.

I could not have been more wrong.

All the benefits that I turned down did not end up keeping the system more solvent or reduce the necessity of gov't programs. Not one bit. Rather, those benefits just made their way into someone else's hands. In short, refusing gov't aid does not eliminate gov't aid.

Rather the opposite. And so the solution to big gov't is also the opposite.

In 2008 this dawned on me. I did not say anything in the forums. I kept it to myself. In 2008 I decided to do something different. I decided to take the right wing Cloward Piven approach. I believe that if we all take as much money in benefits as we can we will force the gov't into facing insolvency, which would then lead to making policy corrections.

Noting the Democrat reaction to the Ryan plan the Democrats will not make a deal before it's too late. They won't do it. They are taking the NY26 as a sign that they will win, and that policy direction means quite simply that we will go bankrupt. They will not listen to reason. So there is one and only one option left, particularly if the election doesn't go well.

Take all the money you can. All of it. Every single darn cent. Get on food stamps if you can. Push it right to the edge of the law.

I commissioned my accounting people to start finding every loophole they can vis a vis some of my business interests and it paid off. I want to double down on that. You know that Lesko guy that sells books? I want to do that stuff.

I want to create a thread for people to input every program possible to take money from the gov't. Take it and buy a gun. Buy a tv. Get the wife something nice. Get a motorcycle. Have a ball. You will be doing everyone a service.

Please in the name of loving this country do your part and help us all become freeloaders. If we put our minds to it I know we can achieve anything. Yes. We can.

[Endovelico]

In any country there are people who need, and people who don't need. The trouble is that some people think that we should act as if everyone is a needed person, and some people think that we should act as if no one is in need. Both things are stupid. Those who can fence for themselves should be encouraged to do so. Those who can't - REALLY can't - should be helped. A very simple principle. I know it is damn difficult to put it into practice, but that should be our common objective. Doing what Mr. Perfect is suggesting may sound like fun, but it will get you killed, in the end.

[Mr. Perfect]

In every society Endo, there are people who will take and people who will not take. No matter how much in the US people like myself have not taken, the lust of those who take has never known satisfaction. The more cocaine you give the more they demand.

Endo, the deficit for this year alone will be nearly twice what George Bush spent on Iraq in 5 years.

You say this will kill us. We are being killed in the existing system, right now. It is already happening. My solution appears to be the only one left.

[Atmosphere]

Cloward-Piven can only work to create a socialist state if the government is staffed by socialists when the system collapses. Even after the so-called 2008 "Progressive Moment," they weren't there yet, as evidenced by the groundswell of Tea Partiers across the country throughout 2009. Even after eighty years of "marching through the institutions," most Americans still reacted instinctively toward socialism. The country is still majority conservative, which means conserving the classical liberalism of the Founding Fathers: Property rights, self-responsibility, and so forth.

Mr. Perfect, what you're saying is that Cloward-Piven's moment arrived (or is set to arrive) earlier than the time when Americans are tenderized for socialism. Might as well make the numbers as apparent as possible. There's still enough time for enough people to look at the numbers and be shocked into implementing policy to change the course. Even Clinton gave the game away when he had gotten captured on-camera a few days ago, behind the stage with Ryan, confirming that he knows the numbers are bad and something has to be done about it. Both parties know it.

The cuts are coming.

[Mr. Perfect]

I don't think they are. There not only have to be cuts, but they have to be nigh on massive cuts. There is zero indication that the Democrats are even there mentally.

Time to suck the system dry.

Further, there is this sense with people sort of based on something Alph would say, that things will continue until the precise moment they no longer can, and then the change will come. My hashing over of the data indicates that we may cruise past that moment and be totally unaware. May be too late as we type this.

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

[CgDs]

[crashtech]

I've heard libertarians called a lot of things, but cowards is a new one to me. I feel quite the opposite, though. Identifying with Democrats or Republicans gives one the safety of the herd, while identifying as a libertarian does not.

I've always considered running with the herd the most cowardly thing a person can do.

[CgDs]

[Hapax Legomenon]

[CgDs]

[Ammianus]

Solution? Form your own country. Google and Peter Thiel, of all things, have explored possibilities of floating Neo-Venetian Republics.

[Najar]

Republicans are far away from libertarian ideals , non even a shade better than dems..

Both dems and republicans stand for big government , but dems are open about it and republicans are sneaky about it.

Dems want to fund the government by taxing and republicans by borrowing (I bet that republicans will vote en-mass for debt ceilimg hike - sonce wall streets interests are in line).

Funding big govt by taxing forces some debate in congress , but borrowing is done thru treasury without any discussion.

Dems are all out to increase populations dependency on entitlement , and once given the entitlements can never be taken away. Republicans do the same with corporations - though not as damaging to the budget.

I dont see any solution that will salvage libertarian ideals.

[Mr. Perfect]

[Mr. Perfect]

[Mr. Perfect]

[crashtech]

I'm not what might be termed a player here. I'm merely a semi-articulate member of the peanut gallery, and as such, not really worth the time to attack.

Also, it is rare anymore that I approach issues with a confrontational tone. Not that I don't have some passionately held beliefs, but I just don't have the time nor the temperament for an ongoing debate.

I don't keep up with forum affairs enough to know if there is an outspoken libertarian taking part in the debates here, unless you count the apocalyptic stylings of DoU.

[Atmosphere]

[CgDs]

[noddy]

i was under the impression that mr p's dastardly plan is actually the modus operandi of most of the west already.

milk the cow till it dies, then worry about finding a new cow - science and technology with provide one, have faith.

[Captain Murphy]

I'm already doing this, although I've been too busy to really push it to the limits. I've had months-long vacations abroad funded by the government. It's pretty sweet.

[Mr. Perfect]

Very nice CM, post any info on how I can hop on that boat if you will. Vacations all around.

[Captain Murphy]

[skyhook77sfg]

beneath the thin veneer of philosophical laissez faire

libertarians are essentially narcissist anarchists who espouse anarchy

for everyone but want their property rights enforced.

they are intellectual frauds of the worst sort...

the piously self righteous sort....


anal retentives who never quite progressed

to healthy individuation with empathy for fellow humans

but remained stuck in that early stage of development

marked by desperate clinging to their own matter

even when it is offal .

[Tinker]