Civility Update!

[amos]

[Demon of Undoing]

Yeah , seriously , it kind of frustrates me that my girls don't have the pain tolerance I or my brother had. Sometimes I think they cry over nothing. But I'm glad they think I'm nuts when I tell them stories. I'm glad they don't have a clue. I think something has been lost , but good riddance to much of it , beneficial side effects or no. I'd like to adopt the same attitude the Germans did about Rome at least up to Cesar's time, and forbid the import of Roman luxuries for fear of weakening tge tribe. Thats where my heart lies. But it is a hard truth ; who will truly bear it ?

At any rate , we are in the easy squishy parts. Now the hard part.

You say you want a revolution ? Well , you know we all want to change the world...

But when you are talkin' bout destruction , don't you know that you can count me out ...

[Tinker]

[Tinker]

[Demon of Undoing]

Sorry , but the past forty years have shown the American people to be entirely willing to swallow just about anything. When someone does protest it , they are maginalized and vilified. It's just history. Is there a breaking point ? Yes , and that's what I've been on about for almost four years now.

But it's a stupid break point- globally speaking they will still be rich. But that doesn't mean anything much because the moral , ethical and psychological environment encourages chaos and short fuses. There will be no starvation , but people will act like there is anyways. Look what happened when someone used the words " cut" and " social security" in the same paragraph. Imagine what happens when people start dying early from lack of care. According to what lizzrdgrl says , that will be later this year in her neck of the woods.

So as far as I am concerned , Americans are doing it wrong from both ends , which explains my increasing difficulty living among them. They have been both too complacent in the past and will likely be too willing to use violence in the future. The two truths are not exclusive. So no , I don't know for what reason people will have enough and will reach a critical mass. But it probably won't be a good one.

[Tinker]

[CgDs]

[Tinker]

We definitely have distorted expectations as to what is 'poverty' and what isn't. But I think it misses the point if you don't recognize how costs have changed. It used to be in New York that you could have a party with your community without spending a ridiculous amount of money, now it can cost a few grand. That's because of the way things are zoned now.

You cannot drive a car unless you pay for the ridiculously expensive car insurance, and in most of the nation you are REQUIRED to have a car.

If you cannot afford the internet, you cannot apply for jobs or find out what jobs are available. So having a computer and the internet are considered a 'luxury' by the standards of the older generation, but in fact it's a necessary tool if you want to actually be able to work.

[Demon of Undoing]

Agreed. The new networks have a very high degree of ability , but the work that goes into it is massive. That support infrastructure is mutating rapidly. If those supports aren't there , things break in a particularly bad way due to specialization and reliance on things as we have expected them to be. It can indeed reach the point where the high end networks cannot be supported.

Question is , whether the high end flinches because of the anger of the masses , or simply moves away. They can do that. They have been doing that. The people's gripes went up the chain- work conditions , environmental standards , wage requirements , safety and social net considerations , etc. The response ? Perot's giant sucking sound , and here we are with the titans of our economy reduced to a cabal of bankers and a few savvy computer tyrants.

People have compared America to a bucket of crabs , where as soon as one begins to get out , the others pull him back in , seemingly almost out of spite. Maybe so. What they don't get is the bucket from the crabs' eyes. In that bucket , it is hell. Crabs fight each other viciously. They will , if left in that bucket long enough , eat each other. It's not spite. They don't drag the climbers down because they hate to see him do better. They are not dragging him down at all. They are desperate to climb out of that slashing , pinching , biting , frightening hell of other crabs. They are just trying to use something , anything as a lifeline , even if it means yanking a fellow down . In America , thats just office politics . And so lives many Americans. Where do they think " Get Rich or Die Trying ", the ethos of huge swaths of the country , came from ? We propagate envy to the insistence on self- hatred , paradoxically rolled into a pita wrap of expanded senses of self worth. It's a mania.

Immigrants maybe talk of opportunity ( though lately , not so much). In a generation , their kids will be of radically different opinions. There's lots of pressures and fears that exist here that do not elsewhere. It's beyond quality of life. It's not impossible to escape it , but if you can't manage , it just might turn you slowly as crazy as a bucket of crabs.

Oh , by the way , as long as nobody tips it over and doesn't stick their hand in it , someone not in the bucket has little to fear. As long as , that is.

[Simple Minded]

[Tinker]

In all fairness, things really are very different. My Grandfather drove a bulldozer most of his life after coming back from WWII with what was later called a disease PTSD. He lived with it his whole life, never got the pussy diagnosis, he dealt with it like a MAN! And my Grandmother who occasionally would wake up being beaten by her husband who was having nightmares, I guess she dealt with it like a MAN! too, no sissified psycho-therapy for them!

People are not less tough today than they ever were. Toughness is a matter of rising to conditions. I don't think that people of today are any less likely to be able to handle it. Sure, as it regards every day challenges, I'm probably pussified as compared to someone who was forged on the Oregon Trail. Compared to my Grandfather, both myself and my Father are real pussies. But should some horror happen to me, I could probably survive it to, or I might not, but my survival would have little to do with being tough. My Grandfather didn't survive WWII because he was a tough bastard, which he was, he survived WWII because the shrapnel he took didn't pierce something vital. I sincerely doubt his pericardium was thicker and had a higher tensile strength than mine. And if there were a war, and I took shrapnel that didn't pierce something vital, I'd probably continue on, like he did. In fact, I am probably more equipped to assimilate horror than he was, because I have done a lot of emotional psycho-therapeutic work and can recognize analytically when I start to devolve into horror states. Because of the pussified skills I have learned in a peaceful society, there are benefits to it.

My Grandfather built the power plant that powers the Four-Corners area. He and his community worked for free so that they would have access to electricity. He was a pioneer, and if I lived in such a society, I would also do the same, I know because I work for free a lot, and am a workhorse when I truly believe in something.

People rise to pain. It has nothing to do with generational toughness. When confronted with pain, one rises to the occasion.

Demon's girls might not be as tough as him and his brother. In my experience, my kids are tougher than I ever was. Though toughness to me isn't a matter of not whining and complaining. I whine and complain when I stub my toe, but I have also taken a punch to the face without flinching, faceplanted at 40 mph with road rash from head to toe and gotten back up. When we were kids we used to hit each other with cars for fun. It's not a matter of toughness, it's a matter of rolling over the hood.

Should some sort of nasty horror confront this generation, they will approach it with the same will to survive that anyone else has.

[noddy]

to a certain extent id agree with that tinker.. but everyone keeps projecting macho man toughness on these things, when most little old women are tougher than leather wearing mustachios in my book .. and thats a toughness of perspective, of self worth, of being able to be dealt a blow and keep on plugging without getting petty and bitter...

going to be interesting anyway.. downturn is starting to hit oz and the dice are a rolling.

[Simple Minded]

I agree a lot with what you both say, Tinker & noddy. In terms of physical toughness, sure, those raised in the school of hard knocks have been more thoroughly conditioned for physical exertion.

In terms of mental toughness, after an extended period of prosperity, we all get used to stuffed bellies, and think it will never rain again. Human nature.

I recall my brother-in-law, 20 years ago, holding his 16 month old son in his arms and saying "I don't ever want my son to get his hands dirty earning a living." I recall thinking "That seems like a recipe for producing a maladjusted adult." Sure enough, he can drive a car, but can not plow snow. If someone plows the driveway for him, he is capbable of functioning in society, if not, he can't get to society. Sure given no other options, he will eventually learn to plow snow or shovel snow, but the adjustment period may be ugly. At age 30, he may be as capable as any others, but right now, by that one criteria, he is non-functional.

My point is when you are getting punched in the face, or doing a faceplant at 40 mph (I hope a motorcycle was involved), probably the last thought on your mind was that "Life is totally unfair!" because the iPod Daddy or Mommy or Uncle Sam bought for you, was not as nice as one of your peer's iPods.

Or, if you grew up eating meat less than three times a week, you may consider yourself a rich man today if you can afford to eat at McDonald's or Wendy's or another fast food joint whenever you want. Our current concept of "blessings" or "Life is good!"is largely determined by our past conditioning. Look at what is considered "offensive" today vs. the idea of free speech that prevailed in the past. Being "offended" was once considered a mark of emotional immaturity or an attempt at censorship.

We don't live in the jungle anymore, but for those who have been sheltered from life's challenges, it does not take much adversity for them to become mildly depressed.

The huge number of people living in environmentally controlled conditions, IMO, was a factor in producing the widespread belief in AGW. Most who bought into that idea were people who did not work outside and rarely experienced the "mood swings" of Mother Nature.

"A mere trifle consoles them, because a mere trifle upsets them!"

I guess another way to look at it is life is a period of continual adjustment. What we think are hard times, are always relative. What is considered tough times during one era may be looked back on as "the good ole days" if the intermediate period is even harsher.

[Tinker]

[Simple Minded]

[Tinker]

Adversity is not a good thing. People make post-hoc rationalizations based on adversity bringing them to certain life lessons, but adversity is simply suffering, it's not good or noble, it's just suffering.

[Simple Minded]

[Simple Minded]

[Simple Minded]

[Tinker]

Yes, that is true. Challenges can be overcome through hard work and perserverance and lessons learned. It is true. But at the same time, sometimes suffering is just suffering, the death of a child brings a lesson for certain, but is that lesson necessary or valuable? The lesson is only needed because one needs to learn how to accept the suffering into their lives. For a person who has never lost a child, they need not know that suffering. Learning that lesson is only important for those who have suffered in that way.

Also, it is possible to learn many lessons without suffering, but our society is built up to favor suffering.

[Caskhades]

[Tinker]

[Caskhades]

[Tinker]

[Mr. Perfect]

Democrat openly talks about blowing the brains out of a Republican.

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/delc ... ague-.html

Yesterday's gun-rights debate in Harrisburg ventured into fairly ridiculous territory, culminating with Upper Darby Democratic state Rep. Margo Davidson posing this preposterous hypothetical involving her and Republican state Rep. Daryl Metcalfe:

"If the gentleman from Butler County stood yelling, knowing that he's a gun-toter, and I felt threatened, would I be protected under court law if I blew his brains out?" Davidson asked.

Maybe if he "stood yelling" in your bedroom after he broke into your house. Otherwise, probably not. And you thought Davidson's predecessor, Mario Civera, had a big mouth ...

John Baer says Davidson apparently didn't get the "reasoned civility" memo following the shooting of Arizona Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords.

By the way, the "Castle Doctrine" bill, which gives gun owners more freedom to use deadly force, passed overwhelmingly.

No fatalities were reported.