Europe

[I am ST]

[Azrael]

[Mr. Perfect]

It seems there are some teams developing.

Az, Az, and Ib vs. everybody else.

I'm quite happy to be on the team I'm on.

[Mr. Perfect]

[Azrael]

[Mr. Perfect]

No, no, I'm on the "everybody else" team. I may struggle with counting, for sure, but reading on your part...

[Azrael]

[Ibrahim]

[monster_gardener]

[I am ST]

azrael,

Good to know. Good to know. I always thought you and Ib had an identical writing style, it only makes sense you share opinions as well.

[Azrael]

[Endovelico]

[Torchwood]

The problem, particularly in Europe, is the renowned Irishman's answer when asked for directions: "if I were you, I wouldn't start from here". That's not particularly helpful. We cannot send them "back home" when they are citizens and many were born here. It is repugnant to treat them as having lesser rights (as was the case with minority millets such as existed in the Ottoman empire)

Western society is based on secular law within a defined territory, applicable to all. There is no tradition of a millet society. In practice, some compromises are acceptable. Many believe that kosher/halal slaughter is cruel (Jews and Muslims disagree) but it is accepted. Not only Muslims but also Jews, Hindus and Sikhs disapprove of "marrying out"; the line to be drawn is that this must not be enforced by threats or violence, but that is difficult to enforce unless there is support within the affected community. There is now a UK forced marriages act, but it has been difficult to enforce. There is a strong case on purely security grounds to ban the niqab and burka (anyone can wear a headscarf, the Queen does for goodness sake). Arranged marriages were never a western custom (except for aristocrats) but they can hardly be banned if parties genuinely agree. The Muezzin does not call in Europe, just as church bells do not ring in the ME.

There are genuine dilemmas, though. It is a decent liberal right that if you marry a foreigner they acquire a right of residence. It is being abused by the importation of spouses wholesale, which as they bring village values with them, delays integration and makes a mockery of immigration limits. It could easily be treated by saying that you can freely marry a foreigner - but not from Pakistan or Bangladesh. That would be outright discrimination, against national values but may be less discriminatory than age limits/restrictions which apply to all foreign spouses. It also shows the conflict between liberal values and democracy: there would be massive majority support for such a law.

Time may solve the problem. People may want to send the Pakis back now, but few want to do so to the "niggers": after a very long time, blacks are integrating wholesale. Otherwise we end up with constant friction as with gypsies, whose values remain incompatible with settled society.

[Endovelico]

Refusing to grant citizenship to someone does not seem to me a violation of any right. Expelling non-citizens who create unbearable tensions in society also seems to me an acceptable defensive measure. I wish all immigrants were sensible enough to understand that conforming to current values in the host country is a sine qua non condition to be accepted by the host community. But when some people refuse to understand the constraints of emigration, they should be prevented from creating unnecessary and unwelcome tensions. It's a matter of common sense, and legislation must be passed to make such common sense legally acceptable and enforceable.

[Endovelico]

[Ibrahim]

[Endovelico]

[Ibrahim]

[AzariLoveIran]

[Endovelico]

[YMix]

ALI, you're going to make Iran's "conclusion jumping" Olympics team someday.

[Rhapsody]

[AzariLoveIran]

.

Look Endo, YMix , I lived in Europe 20 yrs, did school, high school, university in Europe, spend last 30 yrs , 6 months a yr in Europe, know Europe inch by inch, speak pretty much 5 of their languages (fluently), and still you think I do not know Europe ? ?

Why you think I did not stay in Europe and came to North America ?

Come on ..

But .. no hard feeling .. Europe is a old civilization, with old customs and views, cemented .. it did not become better, in fact worst .. WHY ? .. because things were not sincerely debated ..


I know Europe better than most Europeans .. WHY ? because, though know of, not blinded with European prejudice and history.


.

[YMix]

[AzariLoveIran]