BP Not Liable for Spill Cleanup

[Azrael]

[crashtech]

I apologize. I can't erase what I wrote now, but I am ashamed to have let a few words on a screen get the best of me. I've noticed that you are pretty good at that Azrael, I tip my hat to you. You are right, I am not prepared to defend my point of view, which by default makes you right and me wrong. I don't have anything to add to this discussion, so that's it for me.

[noddy]

a sick person blaming a doctor for not being made well again (even with human limitations mistakes by the doctor) is not in the same ballpark as totally wasting an entire coastline and destroying the income and health of many thousands of people.

a doctor who let the central heating blowup in their waiting room is a closer analogy in this case.

the split in my head is consent and choice.

i do choose and give consent to the risks of the medical system if i go to a doctor or hospital, if however someone drops a barrel of toxic sludge in my yard, killing loved ones and poisoning my environment, thats just a plain old attack.

its like blurring the difference between a mma fight and being mugged in the street, sure they are both "fights".. but one is a choice the other is an act of unprovoked violence.

[Azrael]

Sometimes a sick person is not made well again even though the doctor did their job properly. Sometimes a sick person is made much worse because a doctor didn't do their job properly.

The people responsible for Deepwater Horizon risked disaster because some of them didn't do their jobs properly. Disaster occurred. It's very similar to the second case above.

[Azrael]

[noddy]

only if you ignore choice and consent. all fights are the same then ?

[Azrael]

So if you sign a consent form and the doctor cuts off a healthy leg rather than the one with gangrene you shouldn't be allowed to sue?

[noddy]

[Azrael]

[noddy]

[Azrael]

[noddy]

no you completely ignored

(a) sick person is dying already and hospital risk is less risk than dying and the person taking the risk is prepared to take that risk

versus

(b) well person getting attacked by idiot cutting corners.

unless that distinction means something to you, then we can play hyperbolic word games till the cows come home.

[Azrael]

[noddy]

[Azrael]

[noddy]

[Azrael]

[noddy]

anyone that disagrees with you is unreasonable, this is true always.

in my worldview its obvious that increased liability means less people doing the risky thing and an increase in price from those that do.

if im talking about hospitals the worst has usually happened and im wanting as many surgeons as possible being prepared to "risk" fixing me - i want the ability to consent to such risk and i accept bad outcomes will possibly happen.

the opposite is actually riskier to my mind - less surgeons doing risky operations and them charging more for it - a worse outcome.

maybe the percentage of cockups go down (maybe) but thats in the context of less happening full stop- less good outcomes aswell.

if however BP has to increase the cost of petrol to cover this extra risk, it actually affects me a lot less - maybe ill have less chance of industrial disaster maybe not, the truth is the cleanup still has to happen and this cost needs to be extracted from those responsible more than from local communities and tax money.

if bp isnt viable from the true cost of their industrial model then we need another fuel source - if public hospitals arent viable, this isnt a good outcome.

you just have a personal ongoing problem with surgery risks, I cant do nuttin for ya man.

i still think their is a huge difference between "unwell + risk from choice about getting better" and "healthy + risk from external force and the flimsiest of implied choice".

i also still think that despite your puerile ESP response - i have a lot more say in my health choices than in BP industrial locations and i can instinctually tell a tired person from a drugged out person from a sharp and focused person... its not perfect because i dont have ESP but its good enough to push the risk percentages in my favour.

if you are so unobservant that you cant tell them apart, im sorry andif you think BP is as important a part of society as hospitals, im also sorry.

I would want better training, less overworked doctors, drug tests for doctors even, lots of things that improve outcomes - i would not want surgeons or hospitals scared to perform risky operations - this is not the same as the black sludge industry.

[crashtech]

This reminds me a bit of my kindergartener's school work, where she is required to draw lines across a page, connecting pictures of things that belong together. Something must of happened to Azrael in kindergarten, because he flat out refuses to draw the lines, instead insisting on proof from the teacher as to exactly why the lines must be just so. We would not draw a line from a roughneck to an operating room, or from a doctor to an offshore platform. It's self-evident that this is wrong. But you could never supply enough proof to a kid who is being intentionally obtuse.

There are precious few businesses that do not have some kind of liability exposure. Virtually all businesses have to have insurance to cover someone tripping and breaking their nose on their front step, all the way up to whatever the exposure is for their particular industry. It would require a particular kind of Procrustean monomania to try and fit all businesses into same sort of insurance and legal framework.

I actually support legal reforms on both industries in question, but for different reasons, because the two industries are vastly different. For instance, I believe more doctors should be going to prison for their crimes against their patients. They are often personally responsible for the deaths of their patients. Large cash awards do little to deter bad doctors from making bad decisions and killing or maiming more people, all the awards do is drive up costs. Of course, since we are talking about actual prison time, the bar will have to be set much higher for proof of wrongdoing, which means there will be far fewer judgements, and far less money involved. The lawyers in Congress would never countenance such a thing, but money doesn't bring back the dead.

As to the oil industry, large cash awards are useful because there is usually a giant, costly mess to be dealt with. More prison sentences should be dealt out to responsible parties as well. The infuriating thing about the way platforms are run is that critical decisions are being made over the phone by executives who have little sense of the reality on the platform. These guys end up being insulated by a high-dollar legal team and never go to prison. What I would like to see is a senior company executive placed on the rig, one who is able to make any decision that needs to be made. A captain, if you will, upon whom ultimate authority is placed. There's no better place to make decisions than on the scene. I'm guessing there are senior drillers who would accept executive pay and perks in exchange for such responsibilities.

And then there are the blowout preventers that no one seems to want to talk about, whose inability to function as designed ultimately allowed the two of the largest oil spills in history to take place.

I hope that helps explain where I am on these matters, now that my head is back on straight.

[noddy]

in my experience getting a doctor sued is extremely difficult anyway , unless its gross obvious negligence... operating rotten drunk or some such.

the only person qualified to know if a doctor is incompetent is another doctor and thats a fairly closed circle of self protection... which is another reason im not that keen on more ambulance chasing lawyers involved in our already fragile health system - it does seem to be more money to lawyers, less money to health.

i think your take on it is quite reasonable, we dont seem to have as much death from crazy exploitive incompetence over here - its really not an issue on many peoples agendas.

[monster_gardener]

[Azrael]

[Azrael]

[crashtech]

Learn to read, child.

I'm done with you. I hope some other, more reasonable person will comment.

[Azrael]

We see yet again how crashtech reacts when he loses an argument.

Oh, and thanks again for that Freudian analysis of my kindergarten experience. It was very amusing.