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Diegetics • View topic - accounting control frauds

accounting control frauds

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accounting control frauds

Postby amos » Wed Dec 29, 2010 5:18 am

"Once: enough."
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Re: accounting control frauds

Postby monster_gardener » Wed Dec 29, 2010 2:39 pm

Thanks for the post, Amos.

You should post this on the Spengler board too.

Sounds like the FIRE economy is burning down America and much of the World for that matter. ;) :(

Dead peasants insurance?

Hmmm..............

Doubt that insurers* would be willing to sell it but why not turnabout:

The taxpayers taking out insurance on banksters.

Wish I had taken out a policy on Ken Lay of Enron :-)
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Re: accounting control frauds

Postby Alph » Wed Dec 29, 2010 4:35 pm

Trends that can't continue, won't. But until then, they will.
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Re: accounting control frauds

Postby amos » Thu Dec 30, 2010 1:29 am

As for the poor that will be thrown out on the street, what does the market you worship propose for them? Does it involve bootstraps?
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Re: accounting control frauds

Postby Alph » Thu Dec 30, 2010 2:55 am

Trends that can't continue, won't. But until then, they will.
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Re: accounting control frauds

Postby amos » Thu Dec 30, 2010 3:12 am

Alph,

I appreciate your post, so forgive me for pulling that sentence out. I appreciate and respect your opinion, but that sentence stuck out. You are far more clever than am I, and I will study your post which, forgive my crudity, honors the notion of rising tides and boats and you know the rest. I am seriously curious about what happens to those without boats, or boots.

I don't think it is fantastical to imagine disgruntlement over the concentration of wealth in the hands of a few spreading beyond the poor, and I happen to get that disgruntlement. I am most surely not who you imagine I am, though I'll gladly say that I understand why you might think that I am that person. I don't happen to think a return to the gilded age is a good thing, and I also don't happen to think that corporate America has earned much respect in the last 30 years. The best example is not the housing market, it is the squeeze put on consumers by usurious consumer credit shenanigans, by a contraction of the ability of some to seek bankruptcy protection. I think corporate America has learned that the number of mules among the populace at large they can hitch their wagons to is quite large, and, from what I can tell, the beneficiaries at the top enjoy fastening the harnesses a little too much. So, no, I don't share your admiration for the gluttons who you claim deserve every nickle they get. They don't.
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Re: accounting control frauds

Postby Alph » Thu Dec 30, 2010 5:19 am

Amos,

There is no deserves. There is no justice. There is no fairness. There is only supply and demand constrained by diminishing returns and created by the rules of the natural world. And the purpose of capitalism, like democracy, is to recognize that lack, that shortfall, and attempt to harness greed, hunger for power, and all the other universal failings of mankind for the greater good. It has many flaws. It has many failings. But it is far better than anything else we've come up with yet.

Right now, the market is favoring anyone who can tap into extreme scale. CEOs. Bankers. The best musicians. The best actors. The best athletes. Does an athlete whose statics are maybe a few percent above another professional athlete deserve a hundred times the others' salary? Does the world's greatest football player deserve a larger salary than the world's greatest polo player? No. No. But the nature of our current system of exchange provides that they will receive the higher salaries. And the people will complain, because it is nonsensical, because it is unfair, unjust, and undeserved. And yet supply and demand forces it, because the nature of the laws under which we operate today cause these two examples to be a hundred times more economically productive than their counter examples. The only way we can roll that back is by rolling back the advances in communication, interlinking markets, world trade, and digital infrastructure that are enriching us all so much. And so we will not. Though I do agree with you in spirit, supply and demand is more powerful than any of us, or even all of us put together.
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Re: accounting control frauds

Postby amos » Thu Dec 30, 2010 5:25 am

Alph,

Thank you many times over for your reply, mostly because I am struggling through all that is going on without a reliable measuring stick. You help, a lot, and I know that you would like to see that boat-lifting business work. I'd like to lean on you for guidance, if you don't mind, because I can't find my anchor. I must ask, therefore, where you think we are headed. Because markets are going to be confronted by a counterforce (and I am not judging). Please forgive me for being rude to you in the past (How many forgiveness chits do I have left?). After I left the Navy (lawyer), I spent some at the retail level as a lawyer, and that is where I acquired my distaste for a lot of things. I don't roll over and offer my belly up without reason. I walk a line now that I think permits me to work in a market that could work while I serve others trying to navigate that market. It's a challenge. I still believe in ingenuity. Keep me in your sights, because I am not alone.

Reagards,

amos
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Re: accounting control frauds

Postby Demon of Undoing » Thu Dec 30, 2010 5:54 am

FWIW , I am spending a considerable time right now challenging assumptions and reworking my willingness to function inside ugly and inescapable truths . In light of what I am learning about the ancient Greek understanding of the polis , it may well be that things are owed perhaps more allegiance than I have been willing to begrudge, for example.

I keep finding over and over in all this macro mess that the game is rigged, and obviously, but people ignore it because they really want it that way. And I would too. When it comes down to people starving , if I ever fight fair, remove me from the equation .

What kind of an understanding of government lies on the backside of this ? Man really is the Demon of Undoing. We make our way through the world making clearly defined systems, and then gaming the loopholes to our very last breath. We are chaos, and I can't imagine what comes of it as technology simply enables it further .
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Re: accounting control frauds

Postby amos » Thu Dec 30, 2010 6:06 am

I spent a considerable part of my life convinced that local life and politics were immune from dystopianism. Some lessons hit you in the face. I'm not yet convinced that the mess is beyond salvation, but it'll take a collective will that everyone will oppose on principle without a clue why, though the claims for the moral high ground will be loud and furious.
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Re: accounting control frauds

Postby thecontributer » Thu Dec 30, 2010 6:34 am

Straight from the mouth of the oligarch: priceless
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Re: accounting control frauds

Postby Demon of Undoing » Thu Dec 30, 2010 6:38 am

Don't know what it is, but I'm agin'it.
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Re: accounting control frauds

Postby Alph » Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:13 am

Trends that can't continue, won't. But until then, they will.
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Re: accounting control frauds

Postby Endovelico » Thu Dec 30, 2010 11:16 am

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Re: accounting control frauds

Postby Alph » Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:07 pm

Trends that can't continue, won't. But until then, they will.
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Re: accounting control frauds

Postby Endovelico » Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:23 pm

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Re: accounting control frauds

Postby Alph » Thu Dec 30, 2010 4:07 pm

Trends that can't continue, won't. But until then, they will.
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Re: accounting control frauds

Postby Endovelico » Thu Dec 30, 2010 4:32 pm

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Re: accounting control frauds

Postby monster_gardener » Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:22 pm

For the love of G_d, may I consider I may be mistaken
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Re: accounting control frauds

Postby Torchwood » Thu Dec 30, 2010 9:39 pm

Endo doesn’t understand profit. It is not to exploit the workers, but to signal where resources should be allocated , and that is by far best left to the market. Planners nearly always get it wrong, and are far more open to corruption. The market works if high profits are allowed to bring in new market entrants, who then drive the profit down. It stops working if there are barriers to doing so – monopoly/collusion, or barriers to entry which are too high. Government has a role there, if it can be trusted to police and regulate impartially; by and large, in the developed world, it can, and by and large in the developing world, it is too corrupt and incompetent to do so. There are also well known market imperfections through externalities, either where negative (the provider does not pay costs e.g pollution) or positive (does not reap the benefits e.g infrastructure investments). These also require government action. Above all, capitalism requires a rule of law (which may be China’s great weakness, in the end).

It’s not a perfect world; an outrageous private effective monopoly like Microsoft is a second best to an international standard like GSM for phones – but better than no common standards (anyway, Gates is going to cure malaria with the money, but it is still a regulation failure). In the case of banking, the barrier to entry is trust; governments reduce this by giving guarantees, but we have seen how doing too much of this just transfers to sovereign risk, and unreasonably reduces the penalties for failure, to mutterings from lobbying bankers of (“1930s, liquidity trap, we ‘ll move to the Caymans if you regulate us too much”). However the real scandal which has led to the overexpansion of the fire economy is the fact that employees of banks were allowed to write risks which they benefitted from if they paid off, but were not penalised if they went wrong. That was regulatory failure.

You should support globalised capitalism, Endo, because it has led to a massive reduction in inequality. The Gini coefficient for the world (0=total equality, 1= one person owns everything) seems to have gone down from about 0.65 twenty years ago to about 0.55 now, due to superior growth in the developing world , especially China and India. Of course there are losers, and if they seem to be more in the developed world it is because they are more voluble, there are plenty in the developing world but fewer than winners. In most developed countries the Gini coefficient has gone up a bit (from 0.35 to around .4 in the US, but that is an unequal place). Given the more equal places tend to be pleasanter it does not have to be that way. Alph is right that in a globalised world there are big winners, but there is also the “long tail” of global niches, and you can make money out of them in a way that spreads the wealth.

The prize example is Germany, where all the little mittelstand engineering companies have done very well out of global niches, especially machine tools, and the place has not become more unequal But then, Germans save a lot and don’t spend it on unprofitable speculation such as property. We hear so much about what’s wrong with Germany (demographics, can’t absorb immigrants, cultural desert etc.) let’s at least hear it for their economy. Trade deficits and net lost jobs in southern Europe and the Anglo world is from spending more than saving, not globalisation.

What makes an honest society is still not well understood. 18C Britain was deeply corrupt, and became more or less honest in 19C: USA much less corrupt in 20C than 19th, yet, as in corrupt India and China, today , the 19C was when growth was fastest. Immature institutions?

Jokey discussion with an Indian friend:

A road cost $20m

In developed world the full $20m is available, but permitting, unions, health and safety etc. means it now costs $40m.

In China, $10m disappears in kickbacks, but they can still build the whole road for $10m.

In India , $10m disappears in kickbacks, you get half a road.

In Nigeria, $20m disappears, no road.
Pessimism is the soft option.
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Re: accounting control frauds

Postby amos » Fri Dec 31, 2010 5:44 am

"Once: enough."
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Re: accounting control frauds

Postby Tinker » Fri Dec 31, 2010 7:22 am

The canary didn't die because this mine is dangerous, it died because it's lazy and wasn't raised with a proper work ethic.
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Re: accounting control frauds

Postby Tinker » Fri Dec 31, 2010 7:34 am

The canary didn't die because this mine is dangerous, it died because it's lazy and wasn't raised with a proper work ethic.
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Re: accounting control frauds

Postby Tinker » Fri Dec 31, 2010 7:42 am

The real fact is that iBanking isn't an illuminati industry engaging in privatized social engineering of the sort claimed by Marxists over the past 100 years. It's the tragedy of the commons writ large. Oftentimes the 'good guys' will demonstrate the corrupt and parasitic nature of particular markets or funds by hedging against it and publishing their findings. But they are still profitting from the corruption in the end. Even the white hat (so to speak) ibankers. After all they do not control the circumstances that allow them to profit. And as Mr. Perfect has pointed out again and again, they can profit from pretty much any regulatory environment that is put into place. The iBanking industry as a whole is dedicated purely to value extraction. It doesn't produce anything, and in many cases, doesn't even really drive investment in real productivity. It's very easy to profit off of the vagaries of a market if you understand it, such as the pure scam we know of as Forex. There is nothing noble about trading dollars for Euros when the dollar is high and the Euro is low, and back again when the Euro is high and the dollar is low, but it's certainly profitable.
The canary didn't die because this mine is dangerous, it died because it's lazy and wasn't raised with a proper work ethic.
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Re: accounting control frauds

Postby Alph » Fri Dec 31, 2010 8:39 am

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