the american temperament

[amos]

“If any man tells you he loves America, yet hates labor, he is a liar.” — Abraham Lincoln

“Only a fool would try to deprive working men and working women of their right to join the union of their choice.” - Dwight D. Eisenhower

“Trade unions have done more for humanity than any other
organization of men that ever existed. They have done more for
decency, for honesty, for education, for the betterment of the race,
for the developing of character in man, than any other
association of men." - Clarence Darrow

Happy Labor Day

[Mr. Perfect]

I guess we couldn't find any post Jimmy Hoffa era quotes from any non-partisan luminaries eh?

[amos]

No, we settled for a legitimate hero, somethng your lardbrain ain't acquainted with....now go play to your dumb masses

[Mr. Perfect]

Jimmy Hoffa?

[the glowing carp]

Marc Morano is more Perfect's idea of a labor day hero, his lard arse getting others to do the labor, that is.

Happy labor day Amos.

Hears to a rebirth of American ethic, post dark years.

[Endovelico]

Unions saved capitalism by the end of the 19th century, by forcing capitalists to share profits a bit more fairly with labour. Now that globalisation has made unions powerless, capitalism will again follow the path to destruction. Capitalists, being as stupid as they are greedy, fail to see this.

[AzariLoveIran]

[Colonel Sun]

Was the N Am Labour Day date chosen to be far removed from May Day?





Union busting in the private sector of the US has been a complete success.

Not at all clear to me that this is a good outcome considering the current state of the economy -> not a magic panacea.



Happy Labour Day.

[Simple Minded]

Good post Col. Sun.

I'm not sure how many people who profess to be union supporters...... actually work in a union shop, and when they are consumers...... buy only union made products. My guess is damn few. Seems to me, when most people are spending their own money, most want the best value for their buck, regardless of their previous proselytizing.

Reminiscent of FDR's famous quote on unions.......... I recall during the last two election cycles there were several stories circulating about pro-union politicians hiring non-union labor for their campaigns. Worst of all, the campaign workers didn't get health care. I even remember one protest where outside union members were bought in to picket a company who did not buy their workers health care insurance. During an interview it became obvious that the union who brought in the protesters did not buy their union members health care insurance either. Toooooo funny!

I worked for GM in the early 1980's. Prior to working with the UAW, I used to buy GM cars. Based on the UAW member behavior I saw in that engine plant.... I have not bought a GM product since.

As someone on this forum is fond of saying "Once...enough!" "No sir!!! Don't take me long to look at a horseshoe!"

No doubt some unions have been busted by evil capitalists and politicians, the few unions I have known have f**ked themselves to death via greed and lazyness. Reminds me of individuals who eat, smoke, or drink themselves to death despite decades of warnings from their doctors that they are on a self-destructive path.

Kinda hard for me to feel sorry for them.......

[Simple Minded]

FDR on public service unions:

"... Meticulous attention should be paid to the special relationships and obligations of public servants to the public itself and to the government. All Government employees should realize that the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service. It has its distinct and insurmountable limitations ... The very nature and purposes of Government make it impossible for ... officials ... to bind the employer ... The employer is the whole people, who speak by means of laws enacted by their representatives ...

"Particularly, I want to emphasize my conviction that militant tactics have no place in the functions of any organization of government employees. Upon employees in the federal service rests the obligation to serve the whole people ... This obligation is paramount ... A strike of public employees manifests nothing less than an intent ... to prevent or obstruct ... Government ... Such action, looking toward the paralysis of Government ... is unthinkable and intolerable."

Good enough for the yoked plebes, but not for the hand holding the chains (Thanks Tinker!).

Sometimes sauce for the goose ISN"T sauce for the gander!

[Endovelico]

[Hoosiernorm]

A dedicated union worker was attending a convention in Las Vegas
and decided to check out the local brothels. When he got to the first one,
he asked the Madam, "Is this a union house?"

"No," she replied, "I'm sorry it isn't."

"Well, if I pay you $100, what cut do the girls get?"

"The house gets $80 and the girls get $20," she answered

Offended at such unfair dealings, the union man stomped off down the street
in search of a more equitable, hopefully unionized shop. His search
continued until finally he reached a brothel where the Madam responded, "Why
yes sir, this is a union house. We observe all union rules."

The man asked, "And if I pay you $100, what cut do the girls get?"

"The girls get $80 and the house gets $20."

"That's more like it!" the union man said.

He handed the Madam $100, looked around the room, and pointed to a
stunningly attractive blonde.

"I'd like her," he said.

"I'm sure you would, sir," said the Madam. Then she gestured to a
92-year old woman in the corner, "but Ethel here has 67 years seniority and
according to union rules, she's next."

[AzariLoveIran]

[Colonel Sun]

[Tinker]

Pro-Union candidates don't really hire union labor all that much. People that are hired to work on campaigns generally are part time pick-up laborers. The notion of providing them with health insurance is facile because maybe during the entire campaign season they work a total of 40 hours doing like 5-10 hours per week. So looking for hypocrisy there just demonstrates a lack of understanding how it works.

On the other hand, Unions often show up in force and can determine the outcome of an election by providing masses of volunteers who work entirely for free to a politician who they think will genuinely support them. This I have seen with my own two eyes.

[Colonel Sun]

And since it's Labour Day in the USA:

[Tinker]

http://caelumetterra.wordpress.com/2011 ... ng-to-one/

[Simple Minded]

Even thought this thread doesn’t seem to draw much response I’ll spule some more.

Looking back at the time I spent with my UAW comrades, it’s a wonder I didn’t get the shit kicked outta me a half dozen times, or the tires on my car slashed. I guess they figured they’d be better off educating the dumbass farm boy, plus it gave them opportunities to pitch their partyline spiel.

During the group discussions, 80% or so would remain quiet, 10% would laugh, and 10% would pitch the party line. The party line would strike me as pure nonsense, so I challenged them.

“If you came home from work and told your son to mow the lawn and he said “screw you, not my job!” what would you do?”
“If your kids were helping you do a job, and one was busting his butt, while the other was screwing around, would you tell the hard working kid to slow down cause he is making the slackade look bad?”
“If your daughter earned a A in a class at school, would you demand that the teacher average the grades so everyone gets a C+? Do you think that would be fair?”
“If you found out your child was not doing their best in school or for their employer, and their reason was “They don’t pay me to think!” or “they don’t pay me very much so I don’t do very much!”… How would you react?"

The response was always the same from the UAW mouthpiece, short version was they would apply some serious discipline to effect a major change in their children’s lousy attitude and behavior. 80% of those in attendence would nod in agreement with me.

Sure enough, some point over the next few days, more than a few would come up to me and say “You’re right kid! The UAW rules destroy people, their initiative, and their ability to do a good job and produce good product. But I am hooked. I would never want my child to adopt the attitude this place demands of us. Just don’t let them break you!”

After several years as a financial analyst and a hedge fund manager for one of the big financial firms in NYC, my niece thought the US should adopt more European labor practices. As a tourist, she thought Europe looked so grand. Now after living in Milan for 3 years, she is convinced that unionization is the kiss of death for a healthy economy.

Who knows, maybe we are both wrong. I often am. But before anyone advocates more unionization, I would advise working two years in a union shop, just so ya got a little experience under your belt. Better yet, get your kids some union jobs.

Such is America today….. Anyone who desires that someone else pay more, is looked upon as compassionate. Careful what you wish for. "Nothing is easier than demanding that someone else sacrifice!"

Exactly what one would expect at this point in the cycle.

"The desire for socialism is a huge bear market indicator. It is the desire to control the behavior of other people!"

I think all those who want everyone else pay more are all gonna get to see their wish come true. Much, much more so than they possible imagine at present.....

Can't blame that on Obama or Bush....

[Colonel Sun]

I've often wondered why union - management relationships in the US have historically been so adversarial.

After all, both work for the same company.

[Ammianus]

The current brouhaha over degree and nature of unionization strikes me as one confused as to where the head, body, tail, and anus belongs to.

Unions are a means to an end, no more, no less.

Simple Minded, I love the power of anecdotes. They are very potent and very convincing. I believe you should use more of them as a great motivator for us so we could all use them on a regular basis.

[Ammianus]

[Simple Minded]

[Endovelico]

There are, fortunately, many responsible unions which help workers get a better deal. But the trick is establishing a balance between union power and corporate power. If one of the two overwhelms the other, the result is disastrous for the loser and for the economy. Many of the problems we are now experiencing are due to the fact that unions have too little power. To correct that, workers will have to find again a political vehicle for their grievances, but I doubt that the Democrats in the US, and many so-called socialist parties in Europe are up to the task. Left parties will have to restructure and to review their ideological basis before workers can escape present day exploitation. The left must return to their anti-capitalist ideology, without sacrificing freedom and democracy. A difficult but not impossible task.

[Simple Minded]

[Tinker]

One of the stories that makes me really angry about Unions were the guys who showed up for role-call and hazard pay during 9/11 clean-up and then immediately went home.